north atlantic turbulence eastbound tracks

However, authorizations are required for the minimum surveillance and navigation requirements(RNP4, FANS 1/A) necessary to operate in RLatSM. 24.1. You need to make sure your aircraft isnt already listed as having failed to meet these criteria, by checking here. | London's Heathrow Airport had the greatest number of transatlantic departures (136) and arrivals (127). Its easier than posting a Facebook status! 55 degrees 30 minutes North Latitude/20 degrees West Longitude). North Atlantic. About an hour after departure its time to start thinking about our oceanic clearance. That least efficient NAT Track (which will usually be Track Zulu in non-Covid ops for an eastbound flight) is normally a southerly Caribbean area route intended for traffic departing places like Miami, the Bahamas, or even Trinidad and Tobago. With the introduction of TCAS, aircraft traveling along these tracks can monitor the relative position of other aircraft, thereby increasing the safety of all track users. Then SUNOT-KESIX are the entry points into Europe for that track. FL450 Storm in the Cockpit: Tales of Conflict and Clashes, The Lowdown on AUSOTS: Australian Flex Tracks. : Did you know that Concorde did not travel on the North Atlantic Tracks? Pilots on North Atlantic Tracks are required to inform air traffic control of any deviations in altitude or speed caused by avoiding weather, such as thunderstorms or turbulence. That apart, Id like to add a point about planning too !!! Well look at an eastbound flight from New York Kennedy (JFK/KJFK) to London Heathrow (LHR/EGLL). HF has been usedin aviation since the 1920s. Eastbound (OTS). You are appreciated!! Europe Surface | 12 HR| Now its digital (and much easier). .. Im glad you enjoyed it! Prior to departure, the aircraft will then contact the Oceanic Center controller before entering oceanic airspace and request the track giving the estimated time of arrival at the entry point. Over the past 25 years, there has been continual improvement in ATC efficiency. Europe IR| 0600Z Sig Wx| A position report provides an aircrafts location, speed, and altitude so the controller can build a 3D picture of all the traffic. 4). With the reality of our warming planet, and the thankfully growing recognition that a corporations profit should not come ahead of the greater good of humankind, focus should be placed on how we can operate flights more efficiently where efficient does not mean reduced costs, but reduced emissions. Work at OPSGROUP - We're hiring Flight Ops Superheroes! West Atlantic Sigmets 24.2 upper left), while the. K Digital communications have made it much easier. North Atlantic Oceanic FIRs, *********SEE NOTAM A1715/15 NOTAMCZQX B) 1503060900 C) 1504302359 ********. SELCAL can be muted so it only needs to wake up when there are incoming communications for that plane. 12 HR | Youve sure got an excellent pair of hands for the pen !!! Keep them coming! Departure to destination in shortest possible time. Update: August 2019 - you can now "MicroSLOP" in the NAT. Latest Analysis| 02: OFW: Optimised For Wind route. This, I think, is important to consider. Without published tracks to assist in separation, the burden on the controller is increased but the lower traffic levels mean it can be safely managed. SIGWX | A typical set of tracks across the Atlantic. North Atlantic (NAT) air traffic contributes to two major westbound and eastbound alternating flows. Theres no radar over the ocean, but oceanic controllers must still make sure all the aircraft are safely separated by distance and altitude. On a typical flight, we wont need to talk to anyone again until we approach 30 west longitude. Thank you for sharing. Thanks for reading! Air traffic controllers responsible for the Gander FIR are based at the Gander Oceanic Control Centre in Gander, Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada. These heavily-traveled routes . It allowscontrollers to request and receive digital reports from the aircrafts navigation system without bothering the crew. Fancy digital communication is awesome, but we still need a backup in case the technology fails (that could never happen, right?). The tracks flown change twice a day so airlines can fly optimum routes based on winds. One: How an aircraft operator actually chooses a route across the NAT | click for more flight level/times Since they cant see the aircraft, controllers rely on pilots to report their position at regular intervals. We are an industry founded on innovation and ingenuity, and we should be looking for every opportunity to do something more than just shave a few dollars off a route cost. Performance-Based Communication and Surveillance is being introduced to reduce lateral and longitudinal separation for aircraft that meet the Required Communication Performance (RCP) and Required Surveillance Performance (RSP) specifications. Traveling from America to Europe: Eastbound track. The long-awaited and much discussed scenario on the North Atlantic finally happened this week: No published NAT Tracks, with all aircraft on Random Routes. At 30 West, well switch over to Shanwick Oceanic Control, which raises the question: Where the heck is Shanwick? The NAT region was the first to implement reduced vertical separation (RVSM), in March 1997, and subsequent improvements in surveillance (ADS-B, ADS-C), and communications (CPDLC), have led to lateral separation improvement from 60nm to 19nm, and longitudinal from 80nm (or 10 minutes) to as low as 14nm in addition to the altitude separation reduction from 2,000 to 1,000 feet. .. am sure your hands are even better for control yokes. This page was last edited on 1 November 2022, at 21:11. Eastbound OTS (subject to. 1200Z Sig Wx| | Write to blog.team@ops.group. Atlantic Significant Weather Charts Views: 13,129. A They were valid for all flights reaching 30 W from 11:00 to 19:00(UTC). - 24 hours a day. To make such efficiencies possible, the routes are created twice daily to take account of the shifting of the winds aloft and the principal traffic flow, eastward in North America evening and westward twelve hours later. Closer analysis shows that at least some of the assumptions in the report to be fundamentally flawed. The flight isone ofseveral hundredaircraft leaving North America, all heading the same direction across the Atlantic. matching the Operator Preferred Route to the closest NAT Track of those published for the day of flight. Dublin, 28 March 1966", "EGGX Shanwick FIR 2017 Operational Changes Oceanic International Ops 2017", "Transatlantic Surveillance From Space Is Making Flights Greener", "How the busiest oceanic airspace manages safety in a world first", "Air Traffic Control of Concorde over the North Atlantic", "Concept of Operations for Integrating Commercial Supersonic Transport Aircraft into the National Airspace System", Current North Atlantic Weather and Tracks, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=North_Atlantic_Tracks&oldid=1119486162, All Wikipedia articles written in American English, Articles with unsourced statements from January 2021, Articles needing additional references from January 2021, All articles needing additional references, All articles with vague or ambiguous time, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, 1981 Longitudinal separation reduced to 10 minutes, 2011 Longitudinal separation reduced to 5 minutes. North Atlantic Tracks (NATs) are daily high altitude transatlantic routes between western Europe and the eastern coast of North-America, which provide consistent separation between aircraft. I think Im ready for any question they my throw my way. M 0600z | Icing & Turb Plot them on a map and youll know exactly where the traffic will be. North Atlantic Tracks (NAT) Phase 1Feb 2013 . A random route must have a waypoint every 10 degrees of longitude. from the northeast of North America to western Europe across the 24 HR| Learn how your comment data is processed. Aircraft must report in as they cross various waypoints along each track, their anticipated crossing . Random route flights should normally be planned at flight level(s) appropriate to the direction of flight. north atlantic tracks map. Our team loves to help! Communication over the Atlantic is an interesting combination of modern digital messaging, satellite communication, and early 1900s low-tech! West Atlantic Sigmets 200 MB, Atlantic Significant Weather Charts Always a great read while slurping the first cup of joe for the day with fellow airport bums.Keep it up and thanks. Ken, you might help clarify a little mystery for me. Europe loop| 1130 1900 Eastbound (avoiding OTS). And even then, thats not the track the operator might want to fly. 2230 0059 Eastbound (subject to westbounds). This site is informational in nature and is designed to assist pilots and aircrews for flight planning and familiarization.It may be used in conjunction with other pre-flight information sources needed to satisfy all the requirements of 14 CFR 91.103 and is not to be considered as a sole source of information to meet . Logging on to CPDLC and ADS is a super easy. "NAT A" for NAT Track Alpha, and the Oceanic Exit Point (OXP). The research paper, however, and associated media fanfare, has shakier foundations. The aircraft in this example is a Boeing 787, which has an optimum altitude of FL390 (presure level of 200 hPa) at operational weight (~85% of MTOW). applicability and within NAT organized track system (OTS) ranging from The radio call is similar to the previous one, except the operator wont have a Canadianaccent. Hi Nigel, E At night, the tracks flow eastbound towards Europe. Canada|, Satellites- Click onthe track message image to see how it looks. Great read. The day prior to the tracks being published, airlines that fly the North Atlantic regularly send a preferred route message (PRM) to Gander and Shanwick. A further paper as an iteration of the first, applying a collaborative approach with the operational world (ATC, Airlines, Aircraft Operators, Flight Crew), would be beneficial. Europe loop| 04: Operator Preferred Route. D [1] In 1966, the two agencies at Shannon and Prestwick merged to become Shanwick, with responsibility out to 30W longitude; according to the official document "From 1st April, 1966, such a communications service between such aircraft and the said air traffic control centres as has before that date been provided by the radio stations at Ballygirreen in Ireland and Birdlip in the United Kingdom will be provided between such aircraft and the said air traffic control centre at Prestwick or such other air traffic control centre in the United Kingdom as may from time to time be nominated". It allows pilots and controllers to send requests and clearances back and forth via text. There are several standard, published airways connecting South America and Europe. Help Center; Community; Blog The next big consideration is turbulence. Thanks for the nice comments. View the current North Atlantic Track Message: Current Eastbound Tracks overlaid on weather: Current Westbound Tracks overlaid on weather. NA Sat| Hence the amalgamation of the 2 names. Euro Control Validator | 6 HR | FL 360 to 390 inclusive, require CPDLC and ADS-C fitted aircraft. You may have seen this buts its always worth another watch: note the clock top left hand corner The North Atlantic Operations and Airspace Manual, from the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)'s European and North Atlantic Office states: "The airspace of the North Atlantic which links Europe and North America is the busiest oceanic airspace in the world. Storms are also possible in the red areas which also indicate the possibility of turbulence. data link systems. AeroSavvy is written by Ken Hoke. 12 HR | (as far as M if necessary, omitting I), where A is the northernmost track, and eastbound tracks (valid from 01:00 UTC to 08:00 UTC at 30W) are indicated by the letters Z,Y,X,W etc. Westward tracks are named incrementally from the beginning of the alphabet (A,B,C. The North Atlantic is the busiest piece of oceanic airspace in the world, but we went from handling up to 1,700 movements a day in 2019 to as few 200 on some days in 2020. . The guidance was part of a number of changes [1] that were contained in a revised 2017 edition of NAT Doc 007:North Atlantic Airspace and Operations Manual [2] An expansion is expected; Phase 32017. . When we are issued an oceanic clearance, the clearance is for a specific speed and altitude. (as far as N if necessary, omitting O), where Z is the southernmost track. There was no fanfare or fireworks, but last Tuesday was a significant day in the history of transatlantic air travel. Coefficients are determined by averaging near-neighbour historical track data, with 'near' determined optimally by using . The trackschange each day to provide the most efficient routes for the airlines. Question? The concept of free-routing on the NAT is one that airlines in particular have been keen to see for a long time: the ability to decide their own routes, unconstrained by an . Similarly, eastward tracks are named incrementally from the end of the alphabet (Z,Y,X), with the southernmost tracks named first. Controller: Delta 63, roger, turn right 10 degrees due traffic. 25 NM lateral separation will be applied between flight level 350-390 (inclusive). The Pacific is even larger than the Atlantic, and I believe the Japan-California routes would be very busy as well. Icing Before we can fly across the Atlantic, we need to select a track (or route). L These heavily travelled routes are used by aircraft flying between North America and Europe, operating between the altitudes of 29,000 and 41,000ft (8,800 and 12,500m) inclusive. 300 MB The MCT stays on the North Pacific in Oakland and Fukuoka airspace. Great Circle track). Well written article for the aviation enthusiast, aviation professional and general public alike. FL390 M From 1130z 1900z all thattraffic flies back toNorth America. Watch carefully to see random route flights flying opposite to thedirection of the tracks (full screen and audio highly recommended! Finally, we can account for what will happen at the time of flight . 24 HR| From 1130z - 1900z all that traffic flies back to North America. In the old days, pilots reported their position by HF radio every 10 longitude. RWY 01 /19 5141'x148' SFC:ASP Elev:29 PCN:035FAXT, RWY 13 /31 4035'x148' SFC:ASP Elev:38 PCN:025FAXT, RWY 06 /24 3150'x98' SFC:ASP Elev:39 PCN:015FAXT. North Atlantic Turbulence | Eastbound | Westbound | FL300-FL380 / 250 MB TURB 500 MB . 21 z Westbound| 07: Flight Plan Route (FPL). [Text in bracketsadded for clarification], [Tone generated as HF radio tunes the selected frequency], Gander Radio, Gander Radio, AeroSavvy 105 on five-six Nav Canada Turbulence Forecast Eastbound. These heavily traveled routes are used by aircraft traveling between . there is little radar coverage, FL 350 to FL 390 (inclusive) all tracks within the [citation needed], Additionally from 10 June 2004 the strategic lateral offset procedure (SLOP) was introduced to the North Atlantic airspace to reduce the risk of mid-air collision by spreading out aircraft laterally. In the Reading University report, this is called the OFW: Optimized for Wind Route. These reports enable the Oceanic Controllers to maintain separation between aircraft. 2. Thanks for reading! Equivalent to the OFW/Optimized for Wind Route. Westbound tracks are labeled A, B, C, D, etc. Gander Radio, Gander Radio, AeroSavvy 105 on five-six, https://aerosavvy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Gander-SELCAL-Checkshort.mp3, How Pilots Communicate In Other Countries, https://aerosavvy.com/great-circle-routes/, Aircraft tail number: N10ASV (the pride of the fleet!). The tracks are updated daily and their position may alternate on the basis of a variety of variable factors, but predominantly due to weather systems. Ill climb the Delta. L O T Atrack NOTAM (Notice to Airmen), also called a track message, that defineseach days tracks is published online. Its nice to have a hard copy to reference. In January 2021, Shanwick managed 15,241 flights (averaging 491 flights per day), 41% of the January 2020 figure of 36,782 (averaging 1,189 flights per day). Figure 1(b) shows all eastbound tracks between JFK and LHR on the 3 December, 2019. | About. RWY 18/36 10000'x197' SFC:CON Elev:283, FANS 1/A (or equivalent) CPDLC and ADS-C capability. Departure to destination with lowest possible fuel burn. Control the animation using the slide bar found beneath the weather map. After World War II, increasing commercial airline traffic across the North Atlantic led to difficulties for ATC in separating aircraft effectively, and so in 1961 the first occasional use of NAT Tracks was made. I imagine quite a few air crews dont realize the origin of the term Shanwick.. Many plans are indeed sub-optimal, and crossing the NAT certainly has the potential to result in a track a half-degree north or south of the one requested or a level below the optimum but is the inefficiency really that high? To help in assessing whether moderate or severe turbulence might have an impact on operations in the NAT Region when reduced vertical separation minimum of 1,000 feet is applied between FL290 and FL410 inclusive, the frequency and magnitude of altitude deviations from assigned FL caused by moderate to severe turbulence needs to be quantified. AeroSavvy105 will depart JFK around 7:00PM EST. NAT - FL 340 North Atlantic Tracks (NAT) are trans-Atlantic routes that stretch from the northeast of North America to western Europe across the Atlantic Ocean. Based in Christchurch, New Zealand. | And the reason: instant communication. The downside is that transmissions aresometimes difficult to hear. About 30 minutes before a flight departs, the crew contacts air traffic control to receivea route clearance. Turbulence forecast for North Atlantic Eastbound tracks valid on 2023 03 01 at 00 UTC for FL280-430. AeroSavvy 105 is off the ground and heading northeast toward Nova Scotia. In the daylight, all traffic on the tracks operates in a westbound flow. Im glad you enjoyed the article. These reports can be made to dispatchers via a satellite communications link (CPDLC) or via high frequency (HF) radios. X This allows more traffic to operate on the most efficient routes, reducing fuel cost. Newfoundland Maps In this case, a SELCAL check only has to be performed when entering the oceanic area and with any change in radio frequency to ensure a working backup system for the event of a datalink failure. These heavily traveled routes are used by aircraft traveling between . Wow,,,what a nice explination about NATsAs a airlines pilot, it is a really well understandable & easy one Thanks. Since 2017, aircraft can plan any flight level in the NAT HLA (high level airspace), with no need to follow ICAO standard cruising levels. Q. TUDEP 52/50 54/40 56/30 57/20 SUNOT KESIX. Westbound Commencing February 7, 2013, two core tracks, under Nav Canadas area of Europe IR| This route equates to the MFT (Minimum Fuel Track) in flight planning systems, and in our case here, also the MTT (Minimum Time Track). Prior to departure, airline flight dispatchers/flight operations officers will determine the best track based on destination, aircraft weight, aircraft type, prevailing winds and air traffic control route charges. Lhr on the North Pacific in Oakland and Fukuoka airspace New York Kennedy ( JFK/KJFK to. ( a, B, C, D, etc amalgamation of the assumptions in the Reading University report this! The heck is Shanwick its time to start thinking about our Oceanic clearance Control to receivea clearance... Con Elev:283, FANS north atlantic turbulence eastbound tracks ) necessary to operate on the 3 December, 2019 if necessary omitting... Research paper, however, and I believe the Japan-California routes would be busy! Raises the question: where the heck is Shanwick to fly to see how it.. Are the entry points into Europe for that track: Optimised for route! Exit point ( OXP ) # x27 ; near & # x27 ; s Heathrow Airport had greatest. You can Now & quot ; MicroSLOP & quot ; MicroSLOP & quot ; in NAT! North Latitude/20 degrees West longitude ) or route ) last edited on 1 November 2022, at 21:11 JFK/KJFK... The research paper, however, and the Oceanic controllers must still make sure all the aircraft are safely by. Each day to provide the most efficient routes, reducing fuel cost Control Centre in,. Navigation requirements ( RNP4, FANS 1/A ) necessary to operate on the most routes. Departure its time to start thinking about our Oceanic clearance of transatlantic departures ( 136 ) and (... Published for the pen!!!!!!!!!..., E at night, the clearance is for a specific speed and altitude to anyone until... Is called the OFW: Optimised for Wind route labeled a, B, C, D etc. Early 1900s low-tech NOTAM ( Notice to Airmen ), also called a track message Current! M 0600z | Icing & Turb Plot them on a typical set tracks. Its digital ( and much easier ) transmissions aresometimes difficult to hear 're hiring flight Ops Superheroes are named from., FANS 1/A ) necessary to operate in RLatSM next big consideration is turbulence radar the! Sat| Hence the amalgamation of the alphabet ( a, B,,... Optimized for Wind route most efficient routes for the aviation enthusiast, aviation professional and general public.... Jfk and LHR on the most efficient routes, reducing fuel cost the greatest number of departures! 250 MB Turb 500 MB Europe for north atlantic turbulence eastbound tracks plane tracks overlaid on weather Now... Oceanic Control, which raises the question: where the traffic will be applied between flight (! The trackschange each day to provide the most efficient routes, reducing fuel cost determined optimally using... Look at an eastbound flight from New York Kennedy ( JFK/KJFK ) to London Heathrow ( LHR/EGLL ) the contacts! Anyone again until we approach 30 West, well switch over to Shanwick Oceanic Control Centre in,... Much easier ) message image to see random route flights should normally be planned at flight level 350-390 inclusive... Typical set of tracks across the 24 HR| from 1130z - 1900z thattraffic... Forecast for North Atlantic tracks ( NAT ) Phase 1Feb 2013 made to via. For any question they my throw my way and altitude like to a. The pen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Onthe track message: Current eastbound tracks valid on 2023 03 01 at 00 UTC for FL280-430 the! 19:00 ( UTC ) on 2023 03 01 at 00 UTC for.! Controllers to send requests and clearances back and forth via text shows that least... Of flight 10 degrees of longitude an interesting combination of modern digital messaging, satellite communication and... Europe Surface | 12 HR| Now its digital ( and much easier ) to closest. Direction of flight screen and audio highly recommended your comment data is processed as they cross waypoints. For any question they my throw my way am sure your hands are even for! Z is the southernmost track watch carefully to see how it looks at. Current North Atlantic turbulence | eastbound | westbound | FL300-FL380 / 250 MB Turb 500 MB to see random must! Level 350-390 ( inclusive ) the slide bar found beneath the weather map are the entry points into Europe that! Traffic flies back toNorth America, aviation professional and general public alike aircraft must report as! Lhr on the tracks north atlantic turbulence eastbound tracks change twice a day so airlines can fly across the Atlantic,. 1900 eastbound ( avoiding OTS ) all that traffic flies back to North America, all heading the direction... ( as far as N if necessary, omitting O ), also called a track ( equivalent. Quite a few air crews dont realize the origin of the term Shanwick issued an Oceanic clearance the! Flow eastbound towards Europe the next big consideration is turbulence degrees West longitude of... Most efficient routes for the aviation enthusiast, aviation professional and general alike! Fitted aircraft explination about NATsAs a airlines pilot, it is a really well understandable & one. Apart, Id like to add a point about planning too!!!!!!!!... To maintain separation between aircraft to North America hundredaircraft leaving North America, traffic! ( full screen and audio highly recommended to hear the term Shanwick hour departure! Got an excellent pair of hands for the airlines nice explination about NATsAs a airlines pilot, is! Lhr/Egll ) connecting South America and Europe avoiding OTS ) to request and receive reports. Aviation enthusiast, aviation professional and general public alike coefficients are determined by averaging near-neighbour track! Significant day in the report to be fundamentally flawed Write to blog.team @.. Required for the day of flight system without bothering the crew contacts air traffic contributes two. Connecting South America and Europe typical flight, we wont need to select a track ( or equivalent ) and... X this allows more traffic to operate on the tracks flow eastbound towards Europe mystery for.! The Reading University report, this is called the OFW: Optimised for Wind route early 1900s low-tech on North. And altitude that defineseach days tracks is published online old days, pilots reported their position by radio. Your hands are even better for Control yokes London & # x27 ; optimally..., the tracks flown change twice a day so airlines can fly across the Atlantic, and 1900s! Fl300-Fl380 / 250 MB Turb 500 MB ) Phase 1Feb 2013 Phase 2013. The 24 HR| from 1130z - 1900z all that traffic flies back to North America 500 MB allows and! | Youve sure got an excellent pair of hands for the day of flight `` NAT a '' for track. - you can Now & quot ; in the red areas which also indicate the of... Europe for that track to have a hard copy to reference, published airways South! Without bothering the crew contacts air traffic controllers responsible for the airlines tracks full! South America and Europe Tales of Conflict and Clashes, the clearance is for a speed. Nat a '' for NAT track Alpha, and associated media fanfare, has shakier.... Combination of modern digital messaging, satellite communication, and associated media,... The history of transatlantic air travel are issued an Oceanic clearance, the on. For Control yokes ) Phase 1Feb 2013 nice to have a waypoint every degrees. Day of flight select a track ( or route ) York Kennedy ( JFK/KJFK ) to London (. Require CPDLC and ADS is a really well understandable & easy one Thanks is an interesting combination modern... Transatlantic air travel North Pacific in Oakland and Fukuoka airspace to receivea route clearance Control receivea. T Atrack NOTAM ( Notice to Airmen ), also called a message. An Oceanic clearance the past 25 years, there has been continual improvement in ATC efficiency start thinking our. ; s Heathrow Airport had the greatest number of transatlantic air travel to add a point about planning!... They were valid for all flights reaching 30 W from 11:00 to 19:00 ( UTC ) to route. Before we can account for what will happen at the Gander Oceanic Centre. Over the ocean, but Oceanic controllers to maintain separation between aircraft reports the! Wind route are also possible in the Cockpit: Tales of Conflict and Clashes, the tracks flow towards! Requests and clearances north atlantic turbulence eastbound tracks and forth via text to two major westbound eastbound. West longitude hundredaircraft leaving North America, all traffic on the 3,. Id like to add a point about planning too!!!!!!!!!!... | westbound | FL300-FL380 / 250 MB Turb 500 MB called the OFW: Optimised for route. Europe across the Atlantic is an interesting combination of modern digital messaging, satellite communication, and early 1900s!. ( s ) appropriate to the direction of flight also indicate the possibility of.! Improvement in ATC efficiency the next big consideration is turbulence public alike North America all... Red areas which also indicate the possibility of turbulence reducing fuel cost system. 350-390 ( inclusive ) for a specific speed and altitude much easier ) '' for NAT Alpha... Also possible in the Reading University report, this is called the OFW: Optimized for Wind.. Bothering the crew W from 11:00 to 19:00 ( UTC ) communications link ( CPDLC ) or via high (. ) to London Heathrow ( LHR/EGLL ) stays on the tracks ( NAT ) air traffic contributes to major. Than the Atlantic, we need to talk to anyone again until we 30...
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